Scarboro News

[Jeff R]

Roughs and Fairways were mowed 3 days ago. The course looks great.

[Jeff R]

Also today I played around of golf and there were two cows on 13 fairway, and ended up in the woods down between 18 basket and the gate.

[Natural]

Check out the new course website.
http://www.scarborohills.com

[MixMastaPJ]

hot!

[flippyputt]

Check out the new course website.
http://scarborohills.terapad.com

Nice job, y'all, it looks great!

[Natural]

Current Course Layout
1A
2B
3A
4A
5A
6B
7A
8B
9B
10A
11A
12A
13A
14B
15B
16B
17A
18B

[Jeff R]

Course Layout

1B
2C
3A
4B
5B
6A
7B
8A
9B
10A
11A
12A
13B
14B
15B
16B
17A
18B

[Jeff R]

Moved 3,6 & 8 to B

[the wolf]

I checked out the new website a few days ago and it is totally dope! Great job, beautiful pix! Owwwwwww!

[Natural]

I checked out the new website a few days ago and it is totally dope! Great job, beautiful pix! Owwwwwww!

Appreciate the compliments. Put a lot of work into it. Thanks.

[tim]

Got to play for the first time on Friday with my girlfriend. We loved the course. I was especially grateful that every hole was in the long pins. That makes it much better IMHO. Holes 1-9 were particularly enjoyable with a great balance of shots.

Hole 10 was incredibly disappointing. Epitomizes "filler" hole. 230' of open field. Waste of space IMHO. Find somewhere else to put the basket for that one -- stretch it back into the trees or something. As is, it is frustratingly silly.

Hole 12 looks like you all are planning a deeper teepad, which would be great on that hole. As it is, the course has three 4 short hyzer shots in a row -- three pretty open (9-12). It just gets repetitious. Stretching hole 12 into a monster uphill through the woods (ala PawPaw) would be great.

Hole 13 is incredibly well placed. I think that's another one where the basket could have an alternate location a few hundred feet further up the hill, but that field is perfect.

Hole 14 needs a more clearly defined Mando -- I understand why the current one is there to prevent big hyzers, but the current marker is so unclear that I can see some room for gray -- especially in a tournament, and especially on a thumber route. And that's when you don't want room for gray.

Holes 16-18 are good, but are also a little repetitious. I'm not sure if you could stretch them out some or find other alleys to carve up and down that hill, but these are a very anticlimactic way to finish the course. The course starts so strong, but finishes weak.

I still loved the course -- exceeded all my expectations.

One other question: does anyone else have problems with bounce-outs on those baskets? I had three putts that felt perfect (middle of the chains on nice hyzer putts) that all fell out. One hit chains, fell, bounced off the rim and out, the other two hit the bottom of the basket and popped up and out over the rim. It was really crazy. Still shot a 53 longs to longs, which felt pretty good. But the bounce-outs were just plain weird. Same Wizard I've used for hundreds of other rounds that hasn't had that problem before.

Anyway, thanks again to the Scarboro Hlls folks -- that is an amazing piece of land and a spectacular course. I can't wait to get back, and to see how it grows and changes over time.

[Natural]

Glad you made the trip and thanks for your suggestions. We have some of the same ideas in the works.

"Hole 10...Find somewhere else to put the basket for that one -- stretch it back into the trees or something."

"Hole 12 looks like you all are planning a deeper teepad, which would be great on that hole...Stretching hole 12 into a monster uphill through the woods (ala PawPaw) would be great."

As it is, the course has three 4 short hyzer shots in a row -- three pretty open (9-12). It just gets repetitious.

Hole 13 is incredibly well placed. I think that's another one where the basket could have an alternate location a few hundred feet further up the hill, but that field is perfect."

We've thought of removing 11(add a hole elsewhere or reconfigure it) and put a teepad for 13 at the top of the hill. Thought about adding another pin placement deeper.

"Hole 14 needs a more clearly defined Mando -- I understand why the current one is there to prevent big hyzers, but the current marker is so unclear that I can see some room for gray -- especially in a tournament, and especially on a thumber route. And that's when you don't want room for gray."

I agree with you, does get a little gray sometimes... not sure what we would do yet.

Holes 16-18 are good, but are also a little repetitious. I'm not sure if you could stretch them out some or find other alleys to carve up and down that hill, but these are a very anticlimactic way to finish the course. The course starts so strong, but finishes weak.

Hole 17 is getting reconfigured. As is, the basket is too close to 18's tee. This should mix things up a little at the end.

[tim]

Excellent -- can't wait to get back and see the changes. I think running 10 way back into the trees, eliminating 11 and having a long tee for current 12 (that will flow really well from a longer pin-placement on #10) is a great set of changes -- and will add several strokes of difficulty to the course. And yes, I think current 13 is a hole that could really be made epic -- add an uber-long teebox on the top of the hill and add an uber-long pin placement up the other hill. Turn that sucker into a true par-4. From there, since you now need a replacement hole #11, I think you might could add a hole after current #13, that starts back behind the current basket and plays tight, short and downhill, with a clean flow from there to the current tee for #14. For 14, I think you should just either move the mando to the big tree, and force people to throw the lefty-hyzer/forehand/righty-anhyzer shot to the left of the tree (there is a big opening there, and that's plenty fair) or just give up the mando altogether and allow people who have the arm to throw the big horking spike-hyzer over the trees.

I tried the spike-hyzer for fun, and it wasn't a gimme -- too much uncertainty in the wind once you're above the treeline and too many oddball branches to bounce the disc coming in to the basket. My thought is that if someone wants to try that shot, let them. Of course, that may cause some danger for basket #9 and tee of #10 -- which is why I think it is the best idea to just move the mando further left to the big tree -- it's the only clearly defined boundary for a mando, so go ahead and use it. Yes, you lose one line that way, but the course has enough holes that essentially force a short backhand-hyzer route (8, 10, 11, 12, 16, 17, 18) that forcing a forehand/RHBH-anhyzer hole is not a bad thing -- especially if it makes the boundary clear for the mando and helps ensure safety and flow on basket of 9 and tee of 10.

I look forward to seeing the changes for #17 -- anything to break up the repetition of 16-18 would be welcome.

Also, I don't know what you can do with 18, but the course is such an awesome course that it is anticlimactic to end on the current #18. I'd look back at other options -- lots of them -- to see what else you can do for that hole. It looks to me from the course map like there is plenty of room up the hill above 16,17, 18. If there were some way for #17 to play way up the hill and then for #18 to be a crazy long downhill alley, that would be awesome. Or -- something I saw at Sharp Springs in Smyrna, TN, recently... they had a hole that had a 2' wide window through crazy thick trees so that from the teepad you had straight line-of-sight to the basket -- framed like a picture. There was zero-chance of hitting that hole, but it was cool because it allowed you to see the basket. The actual line to the basket was a big, high RHBH-anhyzer through the open and around a corner... but the little window cut through the brush is what made the hole. You could see your destination, and see the disc skip by the basket when you threw a great shot, even if you couldn't see the disc until the very end of it's flight. It was awesome... I could see something similar on a revised 18 if the course allowed it -- a tight window through the trees to see a basket that requires a big arcing line to actually hit. I'm picturing a 500'+ epic hole down through the woods... something to frustrate and fantasize about. Something worthy of the rest of the course as a signature sendoff...

I should add that I think #5 is ripe for an alternate teepad if there is space for one. The current hole has some interest because of the elevation change, but I threw three discs on the hole and parked all three of them within 12' of the basket on three different lines (spike forehand, flat backhand, spike backhand). With wind that would be a little trickier, but a pro teebox a little back in the woods that added some mental challenge to the hole by forcing a gap to throw out of, cutting back the available lines, would add some interest to an otherwise pretty blase' hole. It's not without some interest, b/c of the hill, but it's still weaker than holes around it. That said, I do think it is worth keeping -- especially if there is a slightly more challenging tee that's possible. Even 30-40' back and a tight gap would make that a far more interesting shot.

I love the course, but with some further growth and development it could be one of the gems of the East Coast -- the land is certainly right for it.

And... another question: how much land do you all have to play with? Is 27-holes in the works for someday? It appears like you might have the room for it...

Last question: the other option that could work is restructuring the course into two nine-hole loops... better flow for folks playing -- most of the best-designed courses allow for a chance to drop by the car mid-round. It wouldn't take much restructuring to make that happen. Play current 1-7, then 16-17 for the front nine. Then, for the back nine, eliminate current 18, and play from middle of 18s current fairway uphill to a pin in the empty area between 15s tee and 16s pin. That's the new 10. Then stretch 15 to a new pin 100' past it's current pin... (new 11), then walk to current 8, and play current 8-9, then stretched 10 as new 12-14. Eliminate current 11. Play stretched current 12 and 13 as new 15-16. Use current 15 as new 17, then walk uphill from 15 for a totally new 18th hole -- a massive 600-700' downhill through trees to current 18s pin. Two perfect loops and a more challenging course.

Anyway, I know it's easy to dream in front of a computer more than 100 miles away... but point being I am really impressed and can't wait to see how far you all push the envelope in the coming months and years. I've already got the August tourney on my calendar and can't wait to play there competitively.

Thanks for reading through these rambles -- all intended as a mix of constructive suggestions and pipe dreams, all of which can be ignored completely without hurting my feelings. Thanks again for all your work on the course.

Glad you made the trip and thanks for your suggestions. We have some of the same ideas in the works.

"Hole 10...Find somewhere else to put the basket for that one -- stretch it back into the trees or something."

"Hole 12 looks like you all are planning a deeper teepad, which would be great on that hole...Stretching hole 12 into a monster uphill through the woods (ala PawPaw) would be great."

As it is, the course has three 4 short hyzer shots in a row -- three pretty open (9-12). It just gets repetitious.

Hole 13 is incredibly well placed. I think that's another one where the basket could have an alternate location a few hundred feet further up the hill, but that field is perfect."

We've thought of removing 11(add a hole elsewhere or reconfigure it) and put a teepad for 13 at the top of the hill. Thought about adding another pin placement deeper.

"Hole 14 needs a more clearly defined Mando -- I understand why the current one is there to prevent big hyzers, but the current marker is so unclear that I can see some room for gray -- especially in a tournament, and especially on a thumber route. And that's when you don't want room for gray."

I agree with you, does get a little gray sometimes... not sure what we would do yet.

Holes 16-18 are good, but are also a little repetitious. I'm not sure if you could stretch them out some or find other alleys to carve up and down that hill, but these are a very anticlimactic way to finish the course. The course starts so strong, but finishes weak.

Hole 17 is getting reconfigured. As is, the basket is too close to 18's tee. This should mix things up a little at the end.

[Josh L Fear Ma Socks]

Name is Josh and I'm one of the Parks and Rec guys that help fix and work on course. I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure Jeff and John (P&R Crew) and the rest of the Scarboro crew can all agree we love to hear suggestions for how to help and support the growth of the course. I can understand the frustration you have on some of the repetitive holes we seem to have, and we are in the progress of trying to reconfigure the course to help this. But just keep in mind we (as Parks and Rec not as disc golf only players) have a few things to keep in mind. The first is this course was started to introduce the sport to Harford county, that means we need to keep in mind families playing which may include players with very little skill. We have met a young boy with his grandmother that play quite often and I have to say he's getting better However, if he can only throw 50 feet a time number one alone is killer for him, so using him as an example you see the dilemma we face. Keep it public friendly (Easy to play, understand, grow, ect. without getting them frustrated and quitting after first time ) and making it a "Pro" or advanced player skill. It's a hard balance but hopefully with the changes that we make we'll accomplish both at some point. The second thing we have to consider is the safety issue, thus one of the reasons for the mando as it forces people away from the tee pads on 10. The mando is to a regular disc golf player easy to understand, however again to the public player means nothing to them and the continue to throw right at the basket. The wood line to the right of the mando used to be a lot worse, and not many people tried it at all, but a tree fell and took quite a bit of the wood line with it. We hope in the spring that the holes will be reclaimed by the natural growth and people won't try to hack that way through (although this may be a loss cause with some people ) The third factor that we have to fight with the course was it was initial set up. When the course was designed and established, no one knew much about the game, and the course was just to remain the original way it was put in. However, the sport has grown in popularity in the area by huge numbers that the county wasn't expecting to need the course to change (we found the old proposals from 1980's at one point saying they expected the park to draw 10 people a week to it. We can say we consistently see 10+ people a day. A huge growth as you see.). The original design didn't really have room to even have extra pin locations and so we have had to get creative and move stuff often to grow the course. An example is number 3 if you can remember the original lay out of course, number 4's teepad was at bottom of the hill on the road (between 3's A and B pins now) and threw up the hill to the field. So to give 3 more room we had to move 4 to top of hill, move 5 then and so on. Any moves we make cause us to have to consider up to 6 other holes, each of which affects another and so on. You can see now why changes are hard for us to do as the work required to move 3 or 4 holes at same time can be a logistical nightmare, and we don't wanna close the course for a time just to do that.

Now the property that we have is also kind of limited in certain directions, we have a stream running near 1,2 behind 6 and up towards 8 and 12 so we've expanded pretty close to the extent that way. There is some room we have to agree but the cliff (60' drop at points) poses safety concerns and kinda pins us into a corner. If we put something there it again starts messing with another hole/safety issues/ect. The out of bounds on 11,12,13 is another property line. However, the woods behind 13's pins for the most part is ours I believe (Jeff knows the best about this and may be better to answer you). I hope I’ve cover most of the problems we face for improving the course, trust me in saying we think we have the chance to make one of the best courses in the area, but it is a time consuming, and a work in the progress.

Now as for some of your thoughts directly, number 5 does have an alternate tee already (it’s a bit further up the hill, and makes a slight problem for us as the A pin is the longer one from there O.O not a biggie just a strange situation, but again as other problems with the course we are kinda boxed in with doing too much as of right now. (16 fairway behind, 4 fairway to left, and 7 fairway to right) So perhaps with future changes we can do something more. 10 is one of the ones we are trying to play with, (making it longer and similar to what you are suggesting) where 11 will be cut out entirely eliminating the back to back uphill to left holes. 14 the mando as said before was a safety thing for 10’s alt tee (the red post) but as we are unsure what to 10 will do we don’t wanna change it and change it later again. One thing to consider on 14 though is 15’s fairway isn’t that far out of the range either so the boxed in dilemma strikes again. As Natural said 17 is getting changed again similar to what you are suggesting, it’s up at top of to do list. It a safety issue on top of making it so similar. We will regret (perhaps not totally regret) losing that nasty “S” turn however, we don’t see too much other choice. As for 18 it might be up for changes, but not a highly ranked concerned. While I agree we need an “epic” finish we tend to find the parking lot and practice area sometimes another lack of space issue lies here. I personally have argued for the clown (think happy Gilmore ) or windmill finish with 18 with an Ace earning a free round of golf however I have been repetitively shot down . The 9 hole loops have been tossed around however, the amount of work to do it is so far down the road we figure a second course could be put in first before that happens.

Again thank you so much for the thoughts, we always consider what everyone says (can’t promise you’ll get your way), and try to use it to help us design the course for the better. Scarboro is a gem, just a needs some polishing up in spots which we agree it needs just hard to work it all in on free volunteer time sometimes. Again, I think I speak for the crew, in thanking you for the input. Sometimes a fresh perspective is needed when thinking about the changes... I can only keep staring at that tree on 3 with loathing and contempt sometimes.

[Natural]

... whoops, fell asleep halfway through that wall of text... just kidding. Well said...although extremely long winded.

[Soup]

I like hole 10.

[Josh L Fear Ma Socks]

I like hole 10.

Keep it public friendly (Easy to play, understand, grow, ect. without getting them frustrated and quitting after first time ) and making it a "Pro" or advanced player skill.

Wonder where you fall?

[Soup]

Who shot a 70 yesterday?

[Josh L Fear Ma Socks]

Hmmmmm good point. However, I can only move up in the world I believe. So not that 10 is terrible but not against some change here and there

[tim]

Josh-

Thanks for all of your thoughts on the course. I think that two of the best ways to accommodate less experienced and rec players are through dual teepads (red/white) and through designing the course as 9-hole loops. The 9-hole loops make the course much friendlier for beginners since there is an easy, natural break in the course where they can return to the car, get more water/snacks, and decide whether or not they want to tackle the back 9. The dual teepads is an obvious way to accommodate players who don't want as challenging a course -- there is some of that in place already. But don't be afraid to put in red tees (or at least tee markers and flags) on a lot of holes. No reason courses shouldn't have 2-3 teepads (green/red/white/blue/gold, as appropriate). I think Scarboro Hills has the potential for a solid Blue layout at some point... I think it would be possible to have a course SSA in the high-50s eventually, with a great mix of shots...

For the beginning players, I think red tees would be able to provide a course that played at least 10-15 strokes easier for most players... it really is an amazing piece of land, and I can't wait to see how it continues to develop. Thank you all again for all of your hard work -- I'll see you all for the tourney in August at the very least. Though I hope to make it back sooner than that.